Tonic difference between a wider guitar and a thicker guitar?

[Seamus]

As the user of an equalizer as my only always on pedal, I urge caution in thinking about what equalization can and cannot do. The equalizer sits between the guitar and amp I use mine for tone shaping and to minimize the dreaded mud. An equalizer doesn’t add anything that’s not coming from the guitar to begin with. It divides the full frequency spectrum of the guitar into overlapping bands which can be boosted or suppressed. That’s it. An equalizer can’t add harmonics that aren’t present in the input signal. It can’t make a Gretsch sound like a Les Paul or a Telecaster sound like a Gretsch. It can get you somewhat closer, maybe close enough in a noisy bar, but that’s the limit.

Sustain is different. Resonant guitars get their resonance from transduction of energy from the strings into vibrational energy in the guitar body. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it must come from somewhere. Energy transferred to the guitar body can’t add to sustain. Guitars with the greatest sustain are necessarily the least resonant. It makes sense when you think about it. There’s a pedal that gives the illusion of sustain, a compressor, which borrows energy from the attack to add back as the note fades. This isn’t the same thing as sustain from the guitar but it’s close enough after two or three drinks and unnoticeable after four.

Yes, you're totally right about EQ. That's been my experience as well. But between amp and EQ pedal, I definitely think some differences are possible to compensate for. Yet adding an EQ pedal to get a bigger low-end sound for jazz from my Phoenix just simply didn't work. Seems like the body-style differences would be small enough to compensate for, but I should try it before I assume it would work!

 

[Synchro]

Tonal differences? Tonal is the right word. Do millimeters, or fractions of inches matter? Do they affect tone?

Small dimensional differences affect comfort and playability. The guitar that’s comfortable to play will sound better because you’ll play it and bond with it. Get the one that fits.

Tonal differences? The biggest tonal difference I’ve ever experienced on a guitar came when I removed the space control bridge from my 6118T Anniversary and replaced it with a Compton chambered titanium bridge. Higher order harmonics just shine now. The acoustic tone is dramatically better. And it just sounds amazing through my amp. Small dimensional differences don’t affect tone like that.

I’ve been using Wayne’s titanium bridges for years. They add some wonderful overtones.

As the user of an equalizer as my only always on pedal, I urge caution in thinking about what equalization can and cannot do. The equalizer sits between the guitar and amp I use mine for tone shaping and to minimize the dreaded mud. An equalizer doesn’t add anything that’s not coming from the guitar to begin with. It divides the full frequency spectrum of the guitar into overlapping bands which can be boosted or suppressed. That’s it. An equalizer can’t add harmonics that aren’t present in the input signal. It can’t make a Gretsch sound like a Les Paul or a Telecaster sound like a Gretsch. It can get you somewhat closer, maybe close enough in a noisy bar, but that’s the limit.

Sustain is different. Resonant guitars get their resonance from transduction of energy from the strings into vibrational energy in the guitar body. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it must come from somewhere. Energy transferred to the guitar body can’t add to sustain. Guitars with the greatest sustain are necessarily the least resonant. It makes sense when you think about it. There’s a pedal that gives the illusion of sustain, a compressor, which borrows energy from the attack to add back as the note fades. This isn’t the same thing as sustain from the guitar but it’s close enough after two or three drinks and unnoticeable after four.

Two very good points.

My current strategy is to work with what the guitar gives me. I have Telecasters, a have four Gretsch, and I have a Guild. There‘s a degree of overlap between these instruments, but each has its own character. You can tweak co trolls a bit, but no matter what, the instrument gives what it has to give, and I’ve learned to concentrate my efforts on how I play, and not try to make a guitar sound like something it is not.

Yes, you're totally right about EQ. That's been my experience as well. But between amp and EQ pedal, I definitely think some differences are possible to compensate for. Yet adding an EQ pedal to get a bigger low-end sound for jazz from my Phoenix just simple didn't work. Seems like the body-style differences would be small enough to compensate for, but I should try it before I assume it would work!

That Phoenix has a great natural voice. Think of it as a somewhat twangy Jazz axe.

 

[Seamus]

That Phoenix has a great natural voice. Think of it as a somewhat twangy Jazz axe.

Yep! It's my prize possession, even if it doesn't always do exactly what I want it to.

 

[Synchro]

Yep! It's my prize possession, even if it doesn't always do exactly what I want it to.

Way to go! I love Supertrons.

 

[AZBrahma]

Eh...well, mass is mass, sympathetic resonance is sympathetic resonance, and damping is damping. Everything form the body design and hardware and materials in different places have some kind of effect on all of it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I wouldn't over-analyze it. No good will come of it. Go for whatever you think may work, learn to love the one you're with, and if you have irreconcilable differences for whatever reason try something else. Good luck!

 

[NJDevil]

@Seamus and @Synchro provided some great insight on why I love my Phoenix so much. 2.75" & 17" lower bout brings "the boom", resonance and surprising warmth for me and am never afraid to play a wide range of genres on it.

I was pleasantly surprised when my Phoenix's "givings" made it the perfect option from my other guitars for when I first played ZZ Top's "My Head's in Mississippi" in a gig some years back. It gave resonance to the thickness of tone the song calls for. It is really the 1st choice for me for any ZZ material. I do not have the exact knowledge of how the build can make this happen, but in thinking about it, the resonance of the Phoenix unplugged seemed to bring "the air" to the tone that was lacking in any of my LPs.

My favorite tone seems to be any electric played on solely the neck pickup engaged.......especially Strats and Teles. The Black Phoenix? I happily have use all three positions comfortably as the neck brings a resonant warmth but bridge + neck and bridge only positions twang at lower volumes that expand in use at higher volumes. It does the Jazz that I play, nails what I am looking for in much of the blues material I play and can be a rock 'n roll beast. Of course it nails the Rockabilly world too....... I just wish my Rockabilly skills could match it!

Many variables...pickups, build, material, a Tru-Arc bridge are all ingredients to the recipe. What I love best about it is the comfort of the neck. As wide as my LPs at the nut, .840" thick at the 1st fret and .920" at the 12th, the Phoenix allows for easy soloing that include some chords mixed in and my fingers never get cramped or tired. It's a great guitar!

 

[Seamus]

@Seamus and @Synchro provided some great insight on why I love my Phoenix so much. 2.75" & 17" lower bout brings "the boom", resonance and surprising warmth for me and am never afraid to play a wide range of genres on it.

I was pleasantly surprised when my Phoenix's "givings" made it the perfect option from my other guitars for when I first played ZZ Top's "My Head's in Mississippi" in a gig some years back. It gave resonance to the thickness of tone the song calls for. It is really the 1st choice for me for any ZZ material. I do not have the exact knowledge of how the build can make this happen, but in thinking about it, the resonance of the Phoenix unplugged seemed to bring "the air" to the tone that was lacking in any of my LPs.

My favorite tone seems to be any electric played on solely the neck pickup engaged.......especially Strats and Teles. The Black Phoenix? I happily have use all three positions comfortably as the neck brings a resonant warmth but bridge + neck and bridge only positions twang at lower volumes that expand in use at higher volumes. It does the Jazz that I play, nails what I am looking for in much of the blues material I play and can be a rock 'n roll beast. Of course it nails the Rockabilly world too....... I just wish my Rockabilly skills could match it!

Many variables...pickups, build, material, a Tru-Arc bridge are all ingredients to the recipe. What I love best about it is the comfort of the neck. As wide as my LPs at the nut, .840" thick at the 1st fret and .920" at the 12th, the Phoenix allows for easy soloing that include some chords mixed in and my fingers never get cramped or tired. It's a great guitar!

Totally agree. The Phoenix sounds great unplugged, too. And that neck is why I don't just trade it in for a Falcon. I will say the Hot Rod I owned before the Phoenix was just a little bit faster to play with the shorter scale length. But I think after years with the Phoenix, that very slight difference is probably not there anymore. I think of the tone of the Phoenix as the sort of slightly more dangerous big brother of the 6120. It's thicker, more commanding, and has a noticeable increase in lows and especially mids.

It's a fantastic rock guitar, an exceptional rockabilly guitar, and a twangy almost-jazz guitar. I pick it up before anything else, for any gig except Gypsy jazz. I played it briefly in a '60s garage-rock band with a horn section, and it absolutely took over with an insane blast of presence when I soloed over horns. I had some of those moments when a huge guitar sound kind of seems to control you as much as you control it. Love that!

 

[Pine Apple Slim]

Yes pickups matter most in the sound, but…..
I chose my Falcon over an identically wired 6120(TVJ Classics, Bigsby, mud switch) because the combination of larger body and longer scale did indeed provide a more full tone, richer in the bass and low mids than the 6120.

 

[NJDevil]

Totally agree. The Phoenix sounds great unplugged, too. And that neck is why I don't just trade it in for a Falcon. I will say the Hot Rod I owned before the Phoenix was just a little bit faster to play with the shorter scale length. But I think after years with the Phoenix, that very slight difference is probably not there anymore. I think of the tone of the Phoenix as the sort of slightly more dangerous big brother of the 6120. It's thicker, more commanding, and has a noticeable increase in lows and especially mids.

It's a fantastic rock guitar, an exceptional rockabilly guitar, and a twangy almost-jazz guitar. I pick it up before anything else, for any gig except Gypsy jazz. I played it briefly in a '60s garage-rock band with a horn section, and it absolutely took over with an insane blast of presence when I soloed over horns. I had some of those moments when a huge guitar sound kind of seems to control you as much as you control it. Love that!

I'm with you 100%. There are another 12 electrics in the herd so my Phoenix has to share time. When I go at though, no other guitar gets touched for at least a week and sometimes up to 3 weeks. It's also the best in the herd to play and noodle around unplugged when watching some sports on the TV......some of these times turn in to valuable practice sessions.

 

[Synchro]

AZBrahma makes some good points, it’s easy to over analyze. I’ve seen identical guitars, which sound different from one another. In contrast, my G6119-1959, with DuoTrons, and my G6122-1959 with Supertrons sound virtually identical through an amp, in spite of one being 16” X 2.75”, and the other being 17” X 2.25”, albeit both trestle braced.

My Guild T-400 is a 17” X 2” deep, parallel braced, with a carved top. By appearances, it should sound a bit thin, but on the neck pickup, it sounds like pretty much any Jazz axe. On the bridge pickup, tne sound is quite different, almost like a Fender Jazzmaster. Go figure. BTW, acoustically, it is a very rich, fairly loud archtop. It is louder than my old Johnny Smith, which was a fairly deep, 17” archtop.

 

[Seamus]

when I first played ZZ Top's "My Head's in Mississippi" in a gig some years back

I didn't realize one of the songs I wrote for my rockabilly-ish band years ago was a counterpoint to ZZ Top! Mine's called "Get Me Out of Mississippi!"

And I lived there for several years, so I can say that...