Setzer's exact echo time

[SLICKFASTER]

I believe Brain has a Brain Seltzer in his hands. I’m not completely sure about the circumstances surrounding this picture but rumor has it Tavo barley got out with his life…..

 

[TV the Wired Turtle]

I’ve wondered as well. As in is it the semi final mix recording through it or is the Echoplex worked in some how to the live board.

I started running my Nocturne Atomic Brain (RE301) preamp a while back through my Epoch Deluxe after hearing about it. It may be minor to some, but both preamps compliment each other really well.

Gotta remember the guitars are just a few tracks, theres drums and orchestra plus vocals As I understand it in the case of say John Holbrooks engineering, he was using two different "consoles" as one was analog, then fed into Protools ie a DAW/ digital audio workstation ie virtual console with the ability to use both plugins or outboard effects.
since you mentioned the atomic brain preamp which is his direct boost so to speak, to amp choice "most of the time". We have documentation that they are then laying that echoplex into those finished tracks, and its not just the guitar tracks getting this.
Which is why when I developed the BS-301 Mysterybrain, it had to have the RE-301 space echo preamp front and foremost but on the tape echo
side of the pedal, there is also an echoplex preamp that gets signal from the space echo preamp but split only to the wet side of the tape echo.
That is the mystery made tangible to the average player, they get both the live and the studio happening at the same time out of the Mysterybrain
to their guitar. Which I feel is going to give the ear the most correct response since most players chasing that Setzer dragon, are listening to
the records/cd/mp4 and not relying on their audio memories of the last time they heard him play live. Which is also different that watching a Video of him playing live, because you arent hearing a guitar to space echo to blondebassman w vintage 30s cab alone. you are hearing the coloring of the mics on each of those 12" celestions in his cab, which are specifically two different mics ( @ruger9 hehehe) he is constantly changing/swapping/upgrading.. AND then it goes to the house console which is then EQ'ing both those mics so that the amp is sitting in the mix of the band to the FOH speakers, which then also impact the sound. whew.. In comparison to a dude sitting in the audience say 100ft back from the stage with that blonde bassman firing directly at him.

ps. I hold overthinking all playing, performing, recording, producing, and guitar tech geekery in general as a conquest, but it makes life tough in other situations.
Setzer was an alcoholic up until the last 7yrs?? Im sure he grapples w anxiety like a large percentage of us artist types and tech datawhores. ( ...as he belly laughs aloud w the tiniest tear forming in the corner of his eye like a droplet of dew dancing about the edge of a spiderweb catching first sunlight on a windy morning)


Setzer's mics back around Xmas xtravaganze w a mojave 201 cardiod and a royer ribbon r121

That FOH mixing desks EQ and gain for Setzers mic mix w the BSO



Here setzer is playing one of his rockabilly riot gigs so he dumps the Royer ribbon on the right for his ol faithfully flat response cardiod a Shure SM-7

 

[ruger9]

ps. I hold overthinking all playing, performing, recording, producing, and guitar tech geekery in general as a conquest, but it makes life tough in other situations.

HA!! On that we can agree.... over the years, "overthinking gear" has actually been a source of great joy... all the research, all the digging, and learning... it was like it's own hobby! But I've reached a point now where I just want to play. STOP buying gear (ok well not totally stop LOL), and just PLAY it instead!

 

[Synchro]

Oh sure, he "did it his way" no doubt (see what I did there? LOL).

I'm not saying he wasn't paying attention or wasn't in control. I'm just saying I don't think he OBSESSED about speaker cable gauge, and how many milliseconds his slapback should be. He simply found what he liked, and kept using it.

I remember when he was actually a member on GDP for a short while (before he got ran off by jerks)... there was a thread about fretwear and string action, and I remember people having debates about how "critical" these things become, obsessing over having to get a fret dress or something... and I remember Setzer saying (basically, I'm paraphrasing), "jeez guys, what's the big deal? If you've got a little string buzz, just raise the action a little."

THAT'S what I mean about not overthinking/obsessing about it. Of course he had TVJ as his personal luthier, and his guitars were set up exactly like he likes them. But that's not the same thing as obsession over minute details. The dude JUST PLAYED (instead of spending days on Internet forums debating the finer points of speaker cone aging or fretwire composition LOL)

Now 'scuse me while I go refret my Hot Rod with 6105s (even tho it doesn't need it), because unless the fret size is EXACTLY what I want, I can't play the thing LOL. Maybe I'll change the gauge of the wiring harness too LOL

[EDIT]
Of course I haven't forgotten Setzer's rig, tho simple, was tweaked to perfection. 6G6B (B ONLY), original transformers, 5881's, Chinese 12AX7s, larger gauge speaker cable, V30s, old Space Echo, 50-100ft guitar cable... he was paying attention. I just think he was paying alot more attention to playing than to gear.

A great point. I have my preferences, just like anyone else, but I could play a gig with a CV Squier and a low-end solid state amp, it would sound good. Ironically, making sure that I had a decent-quality patch cord would probably be my highest priority, in such a situation.

Many of the obsessions we read about in some posts are not technically sound. The example you include; “maybe I’ll change the gauge the wiring harness”, is a perfect example. Unless it is noisy, because of having been made from unshielded wire, your wiring harness is fine. If you have cheap pots, that can be a problem, but not necessarily. If they work and aren’t noisy, it accomplishes nothing to replace pots that are actually functioning correctly.

There‘s no magic component that will change your sound into something amazing. Replacing a working Alpha 500 K audio taper pot with a new CTS 500 K audio taper pot won’t make your guitar sound different. If a capacitor is within tolerance, replacing it with a cap’ of the same value isn’t going to change anything. Ceramic capacitors are more sensitive to temperature changes than most other types of caps, but if the temperature is so extreme as to affect a ceramic cap, chances are that you would be seeking someplace cooler to be.

Hardware-wise, there is one thing that deserves attention, and that is proper impedance matching of the signal path. If you have a long cable, make sure that it is feeding into a high impedance device, such as a buffer, or buffered-bypass pedal. Having a decent quality cable, and hopefully one of reasonable length is a simple, effective way to ensure that your rig will sound its best. Cheap, high capacitance patch cables and long cables that aren’t hitting a high impedance input on the next device in the signal path.

Now if just one of us could say that they’ve actually met the man, sat with him, got to experience what kind of individual he is, have the privilege to discuss his passion…and all this while he watched you play his #1…

I’ve done that with Joe Pass. It’s novel, but hardly a life changing event. Well-known musician meet a lot of people and even if they are warm and sincere, they usually have a lot of demands on their time.

 

[ruger9]

Hardware-wise, there is one thing that deserves attention, and that is proper impedance matching of the signal path. If you have a long cable, make sure that it is feeding into a high impedance device, such as a buffer, or buffered-bypass pedal. Having a decent quality cable, and hopefully one of reasonable length is a simple, effective way to ensure that your rig will sound its best. Cheap, high capacitance patch cables and long cables that aren’t hitting a high impedance input on the next device in the signal path.

And even that isn't a rule: I've read various pros over the years who USE the capacitance loss from extra-long cables as a tool to achieve their tone, which usually includes shaving of the high-highs Fenders are famous for... I believe this is how the "coily cable" originally gained popularity...

 

[audept]

( ...as he belly laughs aloud w the tiniest tear forming in the corner of his eye like a droplet of dew dancing about the edge of a spiderweb catching first sunlight on a windy morning)

Perfect new song lyrics?

 

[gasmoney]

Well going back even further than the BSO, Brian learned this trick of running a tape echo into the mixing consoles effects buss from Dave Edmunds early on.
When Brian Setzer recorded “Rock This Town,” he plugged his 1959 Gretsch 6120 directly into Eden Studios’ SSL 4000E console—a technique favored by producer Dave Edmunds, who recorded his own guitar parts for Rockpile’s Seconds of Pleasure album at Eden using the same method just a few months before. The SSL console’s preamps, EQ and compressors helped generate amp-like warmth and body while retaining crystalline clarity, and a touch of vintage ambience came courtesy of a tape echo unit patched into the board.

For example later w BSO, Brian's Vavoom Album was engineered by John Holbrook.
Holbrook said Setzer generally cut his vocals with a U47, and his tracks were processed with the Echoplex. On Brian’s amps, he used a combination of microphones, Shure SM57 and an old Neumann 67 tube.
Holbrook recorded the BSO on two 24-track Studer analog recorders, equipped with a V Series Neve console with Flying Faders.
Brian Setzer shared that :John Holbrook has an old Echoplex, and after the band is recorded, we take the Echoplex and just slap it over the whole track.

Well super cool thx.
im 9 songs in on my new all instrumental recording project.
im taking my EP1 and EP3 over and have them added to the mix.
very excited to hear what this will do.

FYI. I’m doing an all instrumental release in the vein of Duane Eddy and Eddie Cochran. It’s very very twang oriented. All songs are short and fun. A few covers and some originals
it clocks in at 25 minutes for 9 songs.
looking at a fall release.

 

[Synchro]

And even that isn't a rule: I've read various pros over the years who USE the capacitance loss from extra-long cables as a tool to achieve their tone, which usually includes shaving of the high-highs Fenders are famous for... I believe this is how the "coily cable" originally gained popularity...

I believe you, but have a hard time imagining why someone would choose that solution. If I went up to the Electronics Parts Store and asked for a capacitor, I’d be pretty torqued if they handed me a patch cable, even if they were technically correct that it’s a capacitor.

A cap is a cap. If you put a small cap between the signal and ground, you will bleed off some highs. The smaller the cap, the higher the highs which are bled to ground. The whole signal path is going to determine what frequencies get through. It just astounds me that someone would use a cable to do something that could be accomplished with a tone control.

 

[TV the Wired Turtle]

And even that isn't a rule: I've read various pros over the years who USE the capacitance loss from extra-long cables as a tool to achieve their tone, which usually includes shaving of the high-highs Fenders are famous for... I believe this is how the "coily cable" originally gained popularity...

In the case of Brian using extra long cables, it has nothing to do with capacitance for eq and everything to do with impedance correction to use the roland space echo 301 infront of his amp as a preamp operating high Z. In fact he uses Canare Gs-6 cable which is one brand that has significantly reduced capacitance loading over longer lengths. The long cables makes the input of the Roland RE-301, which is meant for use in a P.A. buss routing or line level effects like a keyboard.

On the stereo output of the Roland RE-301 there are colored washers; red on A and green on B.. these correspond to the buss send and return on the
Roland VX-55 Mixing Amplifier (powered PA) that have the same washers for send and return. (ignore the weirdo machine on the top of the vintage space echo and vintage roland mixing amp) the green washer on my RE-301 crumbled off. 1980 was a loooong time ago

 

[TV the Wired Turtle]

Well super cool thx.
im 9 songs in on my new all instrumental recording project.
im taking my EP1 and EP3 over and have them added to the mix.
very excited to hear what this will do.

FYI. I’m doing an all instrumental release in the vein of Duane Eddy and Eddie Cochran. It’s very very twang oriented. All songs are short and fun. A few covers and some originals
it clocks in at 25 minutes for 9 songs.
looking at a fall release.

I wonder how running one of these tape echo units or even your mysterybrain ,side-chained like how a compressor gets used on the console will work out?

 

[Byron]

So, how about the Hot Licks video that I mentioned way back? That's the only footage I've seen of him playing through the Space Echo and talking about his settings. Hey ho, there ya go go go

 

[ruger9]

I believe you, but have a hard time imagining why someone would choose that solution. If I went up to the Electronics Parts Store and asked for a capacitor, I’d be pretty torqued if they handed me a patch cable, even if they were technically correct that it’s a capacitor.

A cap is a cap. If you put a small cap between the signal and ground, you will bleed off some highs. The smaller the cap, the higher the highs which are bled to ground. The whole signal path is going to determine what frequencies get through. It just astounds me that someone would use a cable to do something that could be accomplished with a tone control.

Joe Bonamassa is one. I can't explain why, simply that some people don't like the high end "presence" frequencies, and the extra long cables (which is what a coily actually is), helps get rid of them. As do many non-true-bypass wah pedals (I have also heard some pros say they LIKE what the non-TB wah does to "mellow" the high end.)

In the case of Brian using extra long cables, it has nothing to do with capacitance for eq and everything to do with impedance correction to use the roland space echo 301 infront of his amp as a preamp operating high Z. In fact he uses Canare Gs-6 cable which is one brand that has significantly reduced capacitance loading over longer lengths. The long cables makes the input of the Roland RE-301, which is meant for use in a P.A. buss routing or line level effects like a keyboard.

On the stereo output of the Roland RE-301 there are colored washers; red on A and green on B.. these correspond to the buss send and return on the
Roland VX-55 Mixing Amplifier (powered PA) that have the same washers for send and return. (ignore the weirdo machine on the top of the vintage space echo and vintage roland mixing amp) the green washer on my RE-301 crumbled off. 1980 was a loooong time ago
View attachment 205036

Yeah I know- impedance not capacitance. Seems to amount to the same thing- less high end. What Brian "loses" with the cable and the Space Echo he puts back at the amp with the treble & presence controls, which seems to be a key "ingredient" to his recipe: allowing all that high end distortion (gritsch? LOL) thru from the tubes... yet his tone is never spikey or shrill. If you plugged a 20-ft cable into a 6G6B without the Space Echo, and turned the treble & presence up as high as he does, it would be a blizzard of nails.

I remember having this discussion over on GDP, and Billy Zoom chimed in on BS's usage of the long cables and Space Echo, "the Space Echo makes those Filtertrons sound alot better than they have a right to" LOL

 

[TV the Wired Turtle]

Joe Bonamassa is one. I can't explain why, simply that some people don't like the high end "presence" frequencies, and the extra long cables (which is what a coily actually is), helps get rid of them. As do many non-true-bypass wah pedals (I have also heard some pros say they LIKE what the non-TB wah does to "mellow" the high end.)



Yeah I know- impedance not capacitance. Seems to amount to the same thing- less high end. What Brian "loses" with the cable and the Space Echo he puts back at the amp with the treble & presence controls, which seems to be a key "ingredient" to his recipe: allowing all that high end distortion (gritsch? LOL) thru from the tubes... yet his tone is never spikey or shrill. If you plugged a 20-ft cable into a 6G6B without the Space Echo, and turned the treble & presence up as high as he does, it would be a blizzard of nails.

I remember having this discussion over on GDP, and Billy Zoom chimed in on BS's usage of the long cables and Space Echo, "the Space Echo makes those Filtertrons sound alot better than they have a right to" LOL

You may be mixing apples with oranges and getting pecans in this set up. The long cable for Setzer's rig is not to tame highs.. that unfortunately is off base as it occurs with the Space Echo unit and its interaction w the guitar. The blizzard of nails thing would be only from the fender amp on its own and that is quickly cured w the amps treble and presence controls.
The RE-301 is a line level effects unit w a very even preamp from its lows to highs and on its best day w a regular guitar cable sounds like a wet lump of coal until it comes into the sum all parts on that setzer rig.

Focusing though on the guitar cable..
If you plug in a standard length guitar cable, quite literally you dont even get a full signal response with a guitar.
Even though the manual shows that you can use the 3 mode switch on each preamp channel of the RE301, to move to a higher impedance mode for instruments (mic for -50dB) its wrongly stated in the manual that it works directly with high impedance instruments like guitar and base. Keyboards yes because they are line level..

Anyway both of those modes on the switch for instruments (-35dB and -20dB) can only achieve 56Kohm impedance at input on the RE301s preamp channel.
This is nuts, again for line level not guitar level. (for example a tubescreamer has a 446K input impedance that just tickles the mark of not loading the guitar pickups and think about the average amp that has a 1meg input impedance)

The guitar pickup is putting out at best 5-6K Ohms on bridge. Setzer generally hangs in middle position and w both pickups on that 2.5Kohm using Setzer signature filtertons (measured at guitars output w a 3" low cap. canare patch cable).
Setzer's instrument cables which were listed as Canare GS-6. Canare GS-6 at 32 feet (10meters?) is .18Ω and 1600pF, but while capacitance does not increase very much, resistance on the other hand does, incrementally so.
What happening is that as the capacitance changes so does its own impedence but only in that it affects a resonant frequency, this is responding also the frequency peak coloring of the pickups so that when both hit the front of the input of the Roland RE301, the preamp in that Space Echo roars to life with a full boost particularly coloring the upper mids.

Here is where then all three things come together firing up the blonde bassman that is responding almost marshall like but not from its preamp so much since its the normal channel's single preamp 12ax7/ 7025 tube, rather the power section of the 6B6 blonde amp w its unique presence control that dials out negative feedback, lowers headroom and increases dynamic interaction hence the boost of frequencies from all that fun stuff in front of the amp hit the blonde amps pwr section, and the choice of vintage 30s (celestions idea of highpwr vox speakers) w 444 cones highly doped hold the lows tight but let the upper mids compressed/saturate.

 

[Synchro]

You may be mixing apples with oranges and getting pecans in this set up. The long cable for Setzer's rig is not to tame highs.. that unfortunately is off base as it occurs with the Space Echo unit and its interaction w the guitar. The blizzard of nails thing would be only from the fender amp on its own and that is quickly cured w the amps treble and presence controls.
The RE-301 is a line level effects unit w a very even preamp from its lows to highs and on its best day w a regular guitar cable sounds like a wet lump of coal until it comes into the sum all parts on that setzer rig.

Focusing though on the guitar cable..
If you plug in a standard length guitar cable, quite literally you dont even get a full signal response with a guitar.
Even though the manual shows that you can use the 3 mode switch on each preamp channel of the RE301, to move to a higher impedance mode for instruments (mic for -50dB) its wrongly stated in the manual that it works directly with high impedance instruments like guitar and base. Keyboards yes because they are line level..

Anyway both of those modes on the switch for instruments (-35dB and -20dB) can only achieve 56Kohm impedance at input on the RE301s preamp channel.
This is nuts, again for line level not guitar level. (for example a tubescreamer has a 446K input impedance that just tickles the mark of not loading the guitar pickups and think about the average amp that has a 1meg input impedance)

The guitar pickup is putting out at best 5-6K Ohms on bridge. Setzer generally hangs in middle position and w both pickups on that 2.5Kohm using Setzer signature filtertons (measured at guitars output w a 3" low cap. canare patch cable).
Setzer's instrument cables which were listed as Canare GS-6. Canare GS-6 at 32 feet (10meters?) is .18Ω and 1600pF, but while capacitance does not increase very much, resistance on the other hand does, incrementally so.
What happening is that as the capacitance changes so does its own impedence but only in that it affects a resonant frequency, this is responding also the frequency peak coloring of the pickups so that when both hit the front of the input of the Roland RE301, the preamp in that Space Echo roars to life with a full boost particularly coloring the upper mids.

Here is where then all three things come together firing up the blonde bassman that is responding almost marshall like but not from its preamp so much since its the normal channel's single preamp 12ax7/ 7025 tube, rather the power section of the 6B6 blonde amp w its unique presence control that dials out negative feedback, lowers headroom and increases dynamic interaction hence the boost of frequencies from all that fun stuff in front of the amp hit the blonde amps pwr section, and the choice of vintage 30s (celestions idea of highpwr vox speakers) w 444 cones highly doped hold the lows tight but let the upper mids compressed/saturate.

That is wild. He’s breaking all the rules, but making it work because of the preamp in the Space Echo.

 

[ruger9]

You may be mixing apples with oranges and getting pecans in this set up. The long cable for Setzer's rig is not to tame highs.. that unfortunately is off base as it occurs with the Space Echo unit and its interaction w the guitar. The blizzard of nails thing would be only from the fender amp on its own and that is quickly cured w the amps treble and presence controls.
The RE-301 is a line level effects unit w a very even preamp from its lows to highs and on its best day w a regular guitar cable sounds like a wet lump of coal until it comes into the sum all parts on that setzer rig.

Focusing though on the guitar cable..
If you plug in a standard length guitar cable, quite literally you dont even get a full signal response with a guitar.
Even though the manual shows that you can use the 3 mode switch on each preamp channel of the RE301, to move to a higher impedance mode for instruments (mic for -50dB) its wrongly stated in the manual that it works directly with high impedance instruments like guitar and base. Keyboards yes because they are line level..

Anyway both of those modes on the switch for instruments (-35dB and -20dB) can only achieve 56Kohm impedance at input on the RE301s preamp channel.
This is nuts, again for line level not guitar level. (for example a tubescreamer has a 446K input impedance that just tickles the mark of not loading the guitar pickups and think about the average amp that has a 1meg input impedance)

The guitar pickup is putting out at best 5-6K Ohms on bridge. Setzer generally hangs in middle position and w both pickups on that 2.5Kohm using Setzer signature filtertons (measured at guitars output w a 3" low cap. canare patch cable).
Setzer's instrument cables which were listed as Canare GS-6. Canare GS-6 at 32 feet (10meters?) is .18Ω and 1600pF, but while capacitance does not increase very much, resistance on the other hand does, incrementally so.
What happening is that as the capacitance changes so does its own impedence but only in that it affects a resonant frequency, this is responding also the frequency peak coloring of the pickups so that when both hit the front of the input of the Roland RE301, the preamp in that Space Echo roars to life with a full boost particularly coloring the upper mids.

Here is where then all three things come together firing up the blonde bassman that is responding almost marshall like but not from its preamp so much since its the normal channel's single preamp 12ax7/ 7025 tube, rather the power section of the 6B6 blonde amp w its unique presence control that dials out negative feedback, lowers headroom and increases dynamic interaction hence the boost of frequencies from all that fun stuff in front of the amp hit the blonde amps pwr section, and the choice of vintage 30s (celestions idea of highpwr vox speakers) w 444 cones highly doped hold the lows tight but let the upper mids compressed/saturate.

Brilliant. I knew you would have the FULL poop. You should be Setzer's guitar tech!

My explanation above was the "For Dummies" version LOL.

That is wild. He’s breaking all the rules, but making it work because of the preamp in the Space Echo.

And there's a lesson there... it doesn't matter what people say, or what specs say, or what is "supposed to" work (or not):

IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD. NO RULES!!!

 

[LesB3]

Brilliant. I knew you would have the FULL poop. You should be Setzer's guitar tech!

I think @TV the Wired Turtle should teach a masterclass. We could give him stacks of money to tell us what we're doing wrong with his stuff. Would be fun to have 9-10 folks in a room playing mad scientist... I'd probably learn more in one day than 6-12 months of mindless fiddling could ever get me.

 

[audept]

And there's a lesson there... it doesn't matter what people say, or what specs say, or what is "supposed to" work (or not):

IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD. NO RULES!!!

My mantra for sound mixing during my career.

 

[TV the Wired Turtle]

That is wild. He’s breaking all the rules, but making it work because of the preamp in the Space Echo.

I think @TV the Wired Turtle should teach a masterclass. We could give him stacks of money to tell us what we're doing wrong with his stuff. Would be fun to have 9-10 folks in a room playing mad scientist... I'd probably learn more in one day than 6-12 months of mindless fiddling could ever get me.

you have to have talent as a teacher to teach.

 

[Bertotti]

I learn a lot from threads like this but also get ideas!