Early sixties Gretsch White Falcon Stereo Single Cutaway

[Highnumbers]

But they couldn't have been incorporating features that didn't exist in 1960 into guitars built in 1960. Dial-up mutes were developed in late 1961. Flip-up mutes were developed in late 1962. I think the evidence is overwhelming that a batch of serial numbers was set aside for Falcons and then they were produced as needed, sometimes over a period of years and the 368xx batch is a perfect example of it. The part I found somewhat surprising is that they evidently didn't use up all single cutaway bodies before proceeding to double cuts.

I think that's true, but also coupled with the distinct possibility that ALL new technologies/features were implemented on the White Falcons first, and then introduced on other models in the lineup. As the flagship Gretsch model, it seems reasonable that mutes debuted on the Falcon, just like other "innovations" (like T-Zone frets, telescoping vibrato, tuning bridge and other gadgets).

Considering that these guitars cost the equivalent of about $6,000 in today's dollars, it's not surprising that batches weren't all shipped/sold at once too.

 

[Yr23]

But they couldn't have been incorporating features that didn't exist in 1960 into guitars built in 1960. Dial-up mutes were developed in late 1961. Flip-up mutes were developed in late 1962. I think the evidence is overwhelming that a batch of serial numbers was set aside for Falcons and then they were produced as needed, sometimes over a period of years and the 368xx batch is a perfect example of it. The part I found somewhat surprising is that they evidently didn't use up all single cutaway bodies before proceeding to double cuts.

Valid points, but the question remains if these were completed in 62/63 why aren’t there any other features of that era? Red felts, oval cavity cover etc. Also the inclusion of the inlaid flip up mute knobs, which I haven’t seen after early 501xx batch (supposedly ‘62) begs questions.

I’ll gladly accept that these are ‘61 or very early ‘62 Falcons, I just think there’s more here than meets the eye.

Also genuine question: is there more info on the history of the mutes than just the patent? I’ve read every book I’ve found on Gretsch guitars but generally these Webster inventions end up getting mentioned in passing at best, like the t-zone and tuning fork.

 

[afire]

I just think there’s more here than meets the eye.

There's absolutely more than meets the eye. When I say "completed" that's exactly what I mean. When you see certain features that didn't exist before a certain time, that suggests it couldn't have been completed before a certain time frame. But I haven't got the slightest clue what may or may not have happened before then. Did they fabricate 10 or 50 or 100 bodies at once? Bind them all together, one at a time, or small batches? Same with attaching necks, or finishing. Dan Duffy mentioned how much the factory workers hated dealing with Falcons, so that may be at least partially the reason for spreading out the misery. And there probably wasn't much point in dedicating the time and resources to labor intensive guitars that they knew would be ordered only on a sporadic basis compared to other models. But exactly how production flowed would be pure conjecture.

The most logical order of things would be that the start of this batch would be single cut, no mutes. Then you'd see a handful of single cuts with dial-up mutes. Then some double cuts with dial-up mutes. Then finally double cuts with flip-up mutes. But when you see a single cut with flip-up mutes, it makes you realize that nothing can be assumed.

If I could snap my fingers and conjure up a complete set of data points it would be pot codes for this batch of Falcons. The value of that would be that then you could compare pot codes on Falcons to pot codes on more common models. I.e., I would bet my paycheck that the pots on the "1960" flip-up mute Falcon would not correspond to the pot codes on a 1960 Anniversary. I would be that they would more likely correspond to a 1962 or 1963 Anniversary. Granted pot codes don't tell you everything and I don't know how quickly Gretsch was cycling through pots at that time, but I'm sure they'd tell us something useful.

 

[Wayne Gretschzky]

Of the 20 batch #368xx Falcon specimens I've documented I only have pot codes for one... #36856 which is a single-cutaway with stereo set-up, and horizontal logo on the headstock. It has pots dated October 1960.

 

[afire]

Of the 20 batch #368xx Falcon specimens I've documented I only have pot codes for one... #36856 which is a single-cutaway with stereo set-up, and horizontal logo on the headstock. It has pots dated October 1960.

Okay, now that could be the start of something interesting. That's the Reverb single cut with flip up mutes. I don't know how easily accessible/sortable your data is, but if this is a question that can be answered, what are the pot dates on the latest dial-up Gent/6120/Club for which you have a date code, and the same question for the earliest flip-up Gent/6120/Club for which you have a pot code? That information wouldn't conclusively answer anything, but it could provide a basis from which to draw at least some educated inferences.

jftman, any chance of getting a pot code from your Falcon?

Actually those four data points might be really illuminating. Or they might reveal absolutely nothing depending on how quickly Gretsch was turning over their stock of pots.

 

[G5422T]

And if they used the "first in first out" with pots?

 

[afire]

And if they used the "first in first out" with pots?

Yep. LIFO, FIFO, no method at all, anybody’s guess. But I do feel like there’s at least a chance that enough information could be cobbled together to paint a somewhat plausible picture of how Falcon production worked. I might be in the minority, but I think it’s one of the more interesting guitar mysteries out there.

 

[G5422T]

Yep. LIFO, FIFO, no method at all, anybody’s guess. But I do feel like there’s at least a chance that enough information could be cobbled together to paint a somewhat plausible picture of how Falcon production worked. I might be in the minority, but I think it’s one of the more interesting guitar mysteries out there.

Any info/data points are better than none.

Bird production is extremely interesting to say the least.

 

[jftman]

Found this from 2018 on the web. Double Cut Falcon from 368xx also stereo model

I am considering getting the pot code from one of the pots, which ever turns out to be the best or easiest to get to.

Classic gear: Gretsch White Falcon

Gretsch spared no expense with the launch of its flagship guitar…

www.musicradar.com

 

[Wayne Gretschzky]

And if they used the "first in first out" with pots?

I can certify that they did NOT religiously abide to the FIFO standard. Dan Duffy explained that the periodic "much older" pots that surface are because they kept these in buckets on the production line, and when the supply was getting low they would refresh with newer pots, right on top of the older one's that sometimes remained at the bottom of the bucket for a long time... only to be used many months later in a batch of guitars that otherwise have much younger pots.

In the early-mid 50s they bought smaller lots of pots and therefore they are more reliable to assist in dating Gretsch guitars. As the success of the golden era pushed Gretsch production, toward and then through the boom of the 60s (Dan Duffy's characterization) they were buying pots in much larger quantities, lessening the value of of that data. But the fact remains that a Gretsch guitar could not be produced before the pots used inside (assuming they are original). So they do provide a fence post in the window of production opportunity a particular guitar or its batch was made.

 

[afire]

Right, so the conclusions you can draw may be limited. A pot code only gives you the earliest possible date. But with enough data points, or even just a few lucky ones, there might be some conclusions to be drawn.

 

[Wayne Gretschzky]

Right, so the conclusions you can draw may be limited. A pot code only gives you the earliest possible date. But with enough data points, or even just a few lucky ones, there might be some conclusions to be drawn.

No doubt... if we can establish multiple pot codes from a relatively small range of serial numbers, AND score a dated bill of sale within that same range presents us with a window of plausible production.

 

[Highnumbers]

I've only ever used pot codes to determine a "not earlier than this" date. It's pretty unreliable for certain manufacturers, Gretsch being among the top of that list.

 

[gasmoney]

I’ve seen other deep dive threads over the years. Especially on the GDP.
this one is set to be the all time winner.
the rabbit hole has been invaded and no end in sight.
PS a I have a picture of one of my pots from my 62 Falcon.
ill post it when it’s located.

 

[gasmoney]

Ok. After a very deep dive into my photo archive I’ve found a few pics
whi knows what the datea are on this pot?

 

[Pemberton]

“6228” The 28th week of 1962 (?) so the second week of July (?), if I’m reading that correctly.

 

[Yr23]

Of the 20 batch #368xx Falcon specimens I've documented I only have pot codes for one... #36856 which is a single-cutaway with stereo set-up, and horizontal logo on the headstock. It has pots dated October 1960.

This is one of the two I’ve been talking about. So considering how pots were used this could be a ‘60 Falcon, but also potentially ‘61 or even ‘62.

Honestly didn’t expect to get this deep into the strangest Falcon years so soon, but this is why I joined this forum.

 

[Yr23]

Also it’s worth mentioning I really only know Falcons. I know them well but when it comes to cross referencing models in a particular year I’m lost. Although considering how singular and idiosyncratic Falcons can be around 1960 maybe that’s worth something.

 

[afire]

Also it’s worth mentioning I really only know Falcons. I know them well but when it comes to cross referencing models in a particular year I’m lost. Although considering how singular and idiosyncratic Falcons can be around 1960 maybe that’s worth something.

It’s the cross referencing between Falcon and regular model production that makes it interesting. Of course, none of it is important. But it sure is interesting.