1940s Gretsch Synchromatic G160 restoration. Looking for tuners currently.

[ddechow]

Hey guys I'm new here. I commented in one other thread about this guitar and received some help there grateful for that.

I'm 46 and have been into guitar repair and and vintage stuff in general since I was about 12.

In 1993 I missed out on a 1959 fender strat for $500 and there's still a hole in my soul because of this...

Anyhow...

I recently acquired a very cool I believe early forties g160 (I think) synchromatic. It needs a neck reset and some other minor repairs all up and down it. It was missing the bridge and the original tuners.

I traded a player grade but great sounding 1973ish Epiphone F350 all flamey maple other than the top ( I think that's the model ) for it..

I located a original bridge on reverb that was nearly as expensive as what I had into the original Epiphone guitar that I traded ...lol.

I am trying to locate original tuners.
But from what I am seeing these are an unusually large tuner and I have not been able to identify them via info and photographs of other similar make and era guitars.

My first suspicion was that they were either kluson bullseyes or imperials.

There are very large tuner. 1 5/16" in between the mounting holes. The string posts appear to be 5/16" of an inch in diameter based on the ferrels that are in the headstock which I believe to be original and seem to match the tailpiece gold plating and patina.

The headstock is actually thicker than most modern guitars as well at a little bit over 11/16". When you put a modern tuner on it you really only have about a quarter of an inch post sticking up exposed for winding strings on.

I've taken some pictures to help explain some of what I'm seeing. I did a tape outline of the footprint impression of the original tuners to help illustrate it as I couldn't really photograph it and get it to show in the pictures.

I had ordered a reissue gretch tuner set that had a very similar shape and I was hoping they would be proper for this but they're quite a bit smaller in every way.

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Dave

 

[tartanphantom]

For a 1940's model, they should be either Grover Sta-tites or Waverly tuners. The 160 model didn't come with Grover Imperials, and Gretsch rarely used Klusons.

One observation-- it looks like the tuners have already been changed out once, judging by the multiple pattern holes. So it's possible that the headstock has already been reamed for a larger shaft tuner.

 

[hcsterg]

For a 1940's model, they should be either Grover Sta-tites or Waverly tuners. The 160 model didn't come with Grover Imperials, and Gretsch rarely used Klusons.

One observation-- it looks like the tuners have already been changed out once, judging by the multiple pattern holes. So it's possible that the headstock has already been reamed for a larger shaft tuner.

I'll second @tartanphantom : the Grover V97-18NA would be perfect on your nice Synchomatic 160, I guess...

They are fine on my G400 Synchromatic, where I use Cleartone Acoustic Phosphor Bronze 12-53 strings :

A+!

 

[Ricochet]

Curiously 1 5/16” is the distance between screws on 3-on-a-plate tuners. Obviously to be installed on this headstock they would have been cut into 3 separate pieces.

 

[afire]

The original tuners were most likely Kluson Sealfasts.

They're out there, but most parts weasels seem to be asking an arm and a leg for them, since they were also native to some higher end archtops.
I believe that the best off the shelf replacement would be Kluson Wafflebacks.

I'm not positive, but I do believe that these are basically Sealfasts with the same footprint. Maybe somebody else knows for sure. Stewmac has them for $132.30. Other than the longer shaft, with the plastic buttons, they'll give you a pretty close look.
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-h...n0CXTHjoiJ2VaYlvWk-7B2fPx-dY6NhhoCI5kQAvD_BwE

 

[ddechow]

For a 1940's model, they should be either Grover Sta-tites or Waverly tuners. The 160 model didn't come with Grover Imperials, and Gretsch rarely used Klusons.

One observation-- it looks like the tuners have already been changed out once, judging by the multiple pattern holes. So it's possible that the headstock has already been reamed for a larger shaft tuner.

I mean it is possible, but if that was the case I would have expected the tuners I removed to have been the porper size for the ferrels which they weren't. there are only 2 sets of tuner hioles the originals and the holes from the crappy tuners I removed.

 

[ddechow]

The original tuners were most likely Kluson Sealfasts.

They're out there, but most parts weasels seem to be asking an arm and a leg for them, since they were also native to some higher end archtops.
I believe that the best off the shelf replacement would be Kluson Wafflebacks.

I'm not positive, but I do believe that these are basically Sealfasts with the same footprint. Maybe somebody else knows for sure. Stewmac has them for $132.30. Other than the longer shaft, with the plastic buttons, they'll give you a pretty close look.
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-h...n0CXTHjoiJ2VaYlvWk-7B2fPx-dY6NhhoCI5kQAvD_BwE

I thought sealfasts were also called bullseyes? Am I wrong?

 

[ddechow]

The original tuners were most likely Kluson Sealfasts.

They're out there, but most parts weasels seem to be asking an arm and a leg for them, since they were also native to some higher end archtops.
I believe that the best off the shelf replacement would be Kluson Wafflebacks.

I'm not positive, but I do believe that these are basically Sealfasts with the same footprint. Maybe somebody else knows for sure. Stewmac has them for $132.30. Other than the longer shaft, with the plastic buttons, they'll give you a pretty close look.
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-h...n0CXTHjoiJ2VaYlvWk-7B2fPx-dY6NhhoCI5kQAvD_BwE

I do appreciate the suggestion, but they are about 1/4 shorter mount footprint, according to the stewmac dimensional drawing.

 

[afire]

Upon closer inspection, nothing about the wafflebacks are quite identical to the Sealfasts. The Sealfasts have the tuner post way off center, which is consistent with the holes in your guitar, while the wafflebacks have the button way off center, but the tuner posts closer to the middle. I'll stick to my statement that they may be the best overall off-the-shelf replacement, but won't drop in without more holes.

And yes, I believe the Sealfasts are sometimes referred to as bullseyes.

At any rate, I'm still thinking the original tuners were Sealfasts. Looking from the other side, doesn't the post close to one side and the overall shape look right? And they 100% were one of the standard tuners used on 1940s 160s. And I just read that Sealfasts are indeed larger than wafflebacks, so that might account for the 1/4" shorter dimensions of the wafflebacks compared to your holes.

And, it turns out that Schaller made replicas:

The bad news is that they appear to be out of production. Maybe you could keep an eye out for a set of these. Otherwise, I'm thinking wait to find an acceptable deal on original Sealfasts and be ready to pounce.

 

[knavel]

While hardly expert on Gretsch acoustics other than thinking every one I've played generally sucked(*) sonically, visually of course they are lovely, I thought sealfast Klusons were only around in the late 1940s Synchros.

I had a 160 which took me ages to squeeze out a sale on, and it was the best archtop Gretsch I've ever heard as I had it worked on by a good luthier here.

The sealfast tuners are the best tuners I've ever found on any guitar. I ought to have kept them.

(*) I like my flattop Town & Country for recording or a gig as it's lack of tonal range makes it easier to EQ, although I have a lot of other acoustics I prefer recording with these days.

 

[ddechow]

While hardly expert on Gretsch acoustics other than thinking every one I've played generally sucked(*) sonically, visually of course they are lovely, I thought sealfast Klusons were only around in the late 1940s Synchros.

I had a 160 which took me ages to squeeze out a sale on, and it was the best archtop Gretsch I've ever heard as I had it worked on by a good luthier here.

The sealfast tuners are the best tuners I've ever found on any guitar. I ought to have kept them.

(*) I like my flattop Town & Country for recording or a gig as it's lack of tonal range makes it easier to EQ, although I have a lot of other acoustics I prefer recording with these days.

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very nice thanks for the pics

 

[Wayne Gretschzky]

Hi Dave... welcome to the site, and congrats on scoring such a cool old Gretsch. As you acclimate to the "vintage side" of things, you should drop the "G" prefix reference on model numbers for Gretsch guitars made before 1980. That's more is a modern era thing.

 

[SunRa]

The pre-war Gretsch archtops are the sweet spot, most all have carved tops, some have carved bottoms. I have a 1941 Synchromatic 100 (not to be confused with the post-war, entry level 100 that came later). It sounds great thick middle tones, good cutting power and has a very fast, narrow, modern neck. Do you have a serial number for your 160?

 

[Spacecaster64]

Hi there, if you are still interested i have those tuners.
Giuseppe from Italy

 

[Spacecaster64]

 

[afire]

Is there a sad story of how those parts came to be separated from that guitar?

 

[afire]

This is an old thread, but I just saw that Kluson has now reissued the Sealfast tuners.

Kluson 3 Per Side Vintage Diecast Sealfast Tuning Machines

Kluson® 3 Per Side Sealfast® Tuning MachinesThe Kluson® Sealfast® tuning machine was the flagship of the die-cast Kluson® lineup and has been out of production since the 1970s. We are proud to reintroduce this tuner using their original predecessors to create the tooling and footprint from to...

www.kluson.com

And they have replacement plastic buttons too.

Kluson Replacement Button Set For Vintage Diecast Series Reissue Firebird/Banjo Tuning Machines

Kluson® Replacement Button Set For Vintage Diecast Series Reissue Firebird®/Banjo Tuning MachinesKluson® reissue keystone buttons used on current Firebird®, banjo, and bass tuning machines. Set of 6 comes complete with screws and washers.Please note that these buttons and screws do not fit...

www.kluson.com